RELATIONAL OUTREACH
Forum Discussion

I'm currently involved with youth ministry in a local church, and I've always done it as "inside-out." I've realised I've been trying to attract the kids who don't want to come to a church to my ministry which is designed for churched kids. So the question is, with one ministry team - how do I cater for my existing "inside-out" group, yet begin to move with the "outside-in" model? Pete was keen to keep the two groups separate (churched and unchurched) as the unchurched kids usually have a bad influenced on the churched ones. Do I start another Friday night group at the church for "outside-in?" That wouldn't work (it's a church, remember! Shaun said that 6 out of 10 kids in South Africa wouldn't consider coming to a church. Pete said something about "go to where the kids are". That is, if they're playing on the street corner - go and join them! I hear Pete's idea, but I have a reservation about this - how can we share Jesus if we're not in church? Surely God only works through churches where people come to hear him, and are open to him? Would God really use us in an ungodly environment? If someone is drowning in the sea, a good way for them to be saved would be to knock politely on the lifesaving station's door, and ask for a life-jacket. Unfortunately, the person who is drowning is usually way out in the sea where the going is tough and lifesavers are scarce. If we want to rescue drowning people - aren't we supposed to don our jackets, and leave the comfort of the lifesaving station (where we sing jolly lifesaving songs and learn about lifesaving) and plunge into the surf to come alongside the dying and helpless? I think so! So I think Pete is saying that "outside-in" is a form of outreach where it involves us leaving our comfort zones, and meeting kids where they are, to be a vehicle though which God works. Roger Saner.

I know you all got Roger's email and I have to agree with him but there is only one point I'm not sure I understand, and subsequently I don't agree. My feeling and convictions are yes God would use an ungodly environment because in the bible God says that "where two or more people are gathered in my name I will be there". Kids will not really go to church of their own accord (the unchured ones) and if bringing God to them on a street corner is how they will learn then so be it so I think, yes, God will use an ungodly environment, this only my opinion anybody is free to correct me and offer advice, and I also think that God woks in mysterious ways and we are not fit to question the how's or why's! Bernadette Day.

Thanx Rodger for your comments about what Pete had to say. I think I battle a lot with many of the same problems that you face!! I have only one real question at the moment!! What does an Outside-in "church" or group look like?? I think the general feel at the conference was that the two disciplines need to be kept separate to stop church kids getting "contaminated" and preserve the culture of the outside group. I have no problem with that, but I struggle to visualise what the outside-in group would look like, not in theory but in ongoing practice!! Do we seek to create a "church" outside of our local church?? Comments and suggestions are most welcome, even if you think Pete was a bit loony!!!! Doug Fell.

I was really moved by the experimental worship we experienced at the conference. I have also read through "Mass Culture", one of the books on sale and found that interesting. We tried this type of 'service' on Sunday night for our Communion using the symbols of stones and water juxtaposed against the bread and wine. We handed out stones to everyone, as well as using the poem from "Mass Culture" on pp. 103/104. We wrote up a few verses and put them up on the wall next to the overhead screen. They were: "If your son asks for bread, will you give him a stone?" , "I am the bread of life" , "...the water I give will become a spring of water welling up to eternal life" and "This cup is the new covenant in my blood". After some worship songs, we had people share about the things that make their hearts hard (failure, pain, etc). After reading various verses (Eze 11:19, Ps 103:8-12, John 2:1-11), everyone dropped their stones into a bucket of water. We then shared Communion with the painting of "Christ of St John of the Cross" by Salvador Dali forming the backdrop (simply photostatted for OHP). The time was a real encounter with Jesus. What was important was that we had a girl present who has not been attending church for some years, but who really found the time valuable. Perhaps, for us in SA, if we experiment with what we do in church services, it can be 'different' enough for both the Inside-out and Outside-in groups, that they can find some sort of middle ground where neither has dominance, but both can encounter Christ. Alan Webster.

What we also need to remember is that we have to follow Jesus's example, i.e go out and mix and mingle with the people that we trying to reach out, cause Jesus sat down with prostitutes and tax collectors. So let us not forget our duties as Christians. What we have to remember is that God is omnipresent, that means he will work any where, one does not need a physical building to have church or to have God present. Shawn Theunissen.

Alan, I like your thinking. I too was very moved by the worship time at the seminar. Pete's talk could have been delivered in the morning (much of the rest of what he said appeared to be padding and the question and answer time was mind numbing) and the afternoon spent discussing, sharing and perhaps experimenting with worship ideas. Worship needs to be creative and so often we just fall back into tried (tired) and tested patterns that were once fresh and new but are now lacklustre. God is alive, His Word is alive and His people are alive. This should be evident in the way we worship Him and live out our lives to His glory. Last Sunday, we too, experimented in our youth service with the use of background "canned music", a short interactive talk using "this is that theology" about loving relationships, a meditation on Jesus calling his first disciples (Mark 1:14-20)and then each person lighting a small candle in front of the Cross as asymbol of the one thing you would most like to ask Jesus who loves us more than anyone else in all Creation (a prayer). It appears to have worked. Of course some people will be moved more than others. But its a start and we will keep on trying to innovate and inspire so that people will be able to not only learn and hear about the reality of God but also experience something of this reality. Simon Cashmore.

My name is Paul Daly and I am from England here as a missionary for two years. In my church back home we ran an "Inside-out" group on Fridays and an "Outside-in" group on Saturdays. The group on Saturdays took place in our church hall and we would just play games - Table Tennis, Soccer, Pool and team games. It was very unstructured and free. The aim of the leaders was to get to know the kids personally and then over time challenge them with the gospel. We had kids come in off the street simply because they wanted somewhere warm to hang out instead of the street corners. This was a great success although over the two years of running such a group we only perhaps saw a small percentage come to know Christ our hall was full (20-25 unchurched young people) at times. I don't know if this helps but I really feel from this work you could get some ideas. Paul Daly.

I've been involved in youth ministry for more than 14 years and use the " in-side out "ministry all the time. I have been challenged for some time now to try the" out side in " ministry( i.e. with the gangs, drug abusers etc ) and yes it is very difficult to leave your comfort zone. We the church are challenged to " GO OUT" and make disciples. The Church is only a meeting place for Gods children to come and worship together and encourage one another on this walk. Jesus went OUT throughout His Ministry you read about Him being among the sinners. One of the examples we did was the women at the well. We as Christians are challenged in the book of Jude "To snatch them away from the fires of hell " We must go to where there is a need. Jesus said " I am sending you out like sheep among the wolves". The people who are in the church knows the truth, we need to go out to our youngsters, enter into their lives and take the truth to them. Scripture tell us how will they know if they never heard. Remember 1 Sam 1 vs 15 " Obedience is better than sacrifice" Jesus says GO OUT and MAKE DISCIPLES" obey and go. For someone will plant another will water BUT Inevitable Jesus will let that seed grow. He will teach us HOW and if we labor with Him we labor not invain. But if we go and trust in the arm of the flesh (Jeremiah 17 vs 5) we will fail. I think we sometimes miss the boat, this is Gods work (not our own) He will see it to completion we are only but servants ( Let Jesus worry about adding numbers we worry about sharing His love) Calvary was not easy and heaven not cheap. God is full of surprises if we follow His Plan. Pray about how HE WANTS YOU TO DO THE WORK....He will give you wisdom and direct you. I never knew where to start or how to do it I just believe I am Called to work in the fields and the master says in Ish 41 vs 10 " fear not for I am with you. Be not dismayed for I am your God. I will strengthen you, ye I will HELP you. I will up hold you with my righteous right hand". I really do not believe Pete meant that the youngsters of "outside" would contaminate the " inside group" When involved in this type of ministry I believe our approach should be different and not to treat the people differently. Jesus treats each and every one of us with the same unconditional love. It can not be Godly for us even to perceive that these un-churched youngster are going to contaminate the church. The women at the well was treated as an outcast in her village, after her encounter with Jesus she became a disciple telling people about this great Jesus. Those unevangelised souls out there needs a chance...who will give it to them if we want to treat them differently? The issue is Culture, meet people where they are at Just like Jesus met you and me where we were at in "SIN" yet he entered our lives. "FOR ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALLEN SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD" EDUCATE and EQUIP YOUR TEAMS! Consult with God and see how he will start equipping you, he will educate you and direct you . Use your existing team, go on courses as a group, equip the entire group, do brain storms when you get back, send out a questionnaire of likes and dislikes. Go out and visit other churches' youth groups and out reach groups and see what makes them successful. My advice is GO and see what marvels the Lord can do in your ministry.( for two years the disciple where taught by Jesus) this will not happen overnight but I believe we need to be taught by the great teacher. Eugeny Maraba.

Some of the questions asked of Pete during the seminar seemed to indicate to me that he had failed to fully explain(or that a number of us failed to understand :-}) what he meant by "Outside In". Some of the e-mails on the forum reflect what I believe to be some ongoing confusion. (I'm going to mention some specific individuals here for the purpose of clarity. I hope they will not take it personally.) Paul Daly wrote: "In my church back home we ran an "Inside-out" group on Fridays and an "Outside-in" group on Saturdays. The group on Saturdays took place in our church hall..." This is not "Outside In". Anything that happens in the church hall is of necessity "Inside Out". Regardless of the activity if the youth are being invited to an event on the church property, its on our turf not theirs. A common misconception seems to be that if non-Christians attend the program and we don't do "Christian" stuff, that our outreach is then "Outside In". NOT!! While not in anyway detracting from the value of a program like the one Paul was running, it was, in Pete Ward's definition "Inside Out". Doug Fell wrote: "What does an Outside-in "church" or group look like??" Doug reflects some of the difficulty that we have in changing our thinking which is for the most part very deeply ingrained along the lines "Inside Out". The whole point of "Outside In" is that there is no way of knowing what it will look like initially. You cannot program it. If the "host culture"(to use a missions term) is to set the agenda in terms of how we start to relate to them then we may not be able to predict what our ministry will look like. Once the longer term relationships have been established there maybe room for some planning and programming but at first the ministry must happen at the pace and in the place set by the "target" community. I'm looking forward to further discussion. Colin Phelps.

THE PLAYGROUND AS HOLY GROUND. Play is not the opposite of serious, and if the serious neglects "play", it becomes un-creative and vain. Play is at the centre of the Christian youth minister's presence among young people. It is a spiritual attitude which regards creation as God's playground and every person as God's beloved playful child. And so as youth ministers we need to strive to be educators who are not limited to the classroom or Sunday school hall or the pulpit. Our classroom and pulpit extends onto the playground and the chapel, the dance floor and the street. As for the educational methodology required, it begins with an active loving presence among young people wherever they are. The playground is the place where the teacher/minister and young person can best meet as friends, enjoy each other's company, and grow in mutual understanding and respect. It is vital that young people not only be loved by us, but that they should know they are loved. Without the familiarity and relationship building of the playground, it is difficult to show love, and that unless love is shown, there cannot then arise the familiarity which is essential for any evangelising and educational activity to succeed. Side by side with the young, the minister learns about their ever changing world, their interests, their humour, their families and friends, their likes and dislikes - all at first hand. He (please excuse the sexist language) discovers their strengths and weakness, the leaders and the bullies, the fearful and the popular. His own friendly presence among them reveals God's love which is patient and compassionate. The youth pastor cannot remain an outsider; he must belong. With the example of Jesus, he cannot refuse the call "to pitch his tent" in the world of youth. A noisy playground is a meeting place with God. The concern of any youth minister must be geared towards the physical, intellectual, emotional and spiritual welfare and growth of young people, and the playground is where this concern best manifests itself. How can we appreciate "the value of the smallest soul of all" if we have not heard ourselves addressed as "beloved child" by God, and not played with the Lord of the planetary playground in intimate recreation with him. How can we have the patience, the understanding and the humility to be ourselves with the young, if we do not know ourselves as being chosen as we are? Being with the young in this radical way is the key to youth ministry. We must strive to have a healing presence which begins with an availability to listen. It is a constant challenge to let go of our own importance, our comfort, our security. It is a call to approach the world of young people as holy ground because God speaks to us through them; a call to stand with them against all that would enslave them; a call to go barefoot out of reverence for each young person on his or her pilgrimage; a call to the educator to be forever young in imitation of our God who plays in the midst of his creation with the seriousness and enthusiasm of a child! Just a concluding thought: Jesus taught adults and played with children. We tend to teach children and play with adults! Is that perhaps one of our big "post-modern" mistakes? Francois Dufour.

I think Colin Phelp's comments were extremely accurate. By definition, the Outside-In approach is meant to be going to young people on their turf - at clubs, roller-blading venues, music concerts, volley-ball or soccer tournaments and the like. Perhaps forming a music-club in the format of a book club type group, will be one of the ways in which to do this. It happens at a venue made available by the non-Christian kids, with their music. At some point you can play them some of your (Christian music) and slowly influence them. Remember that Outside-In may be a slow process. I would estimate that it would take a year to start seeing results, like salvations or people starting to want to go to your church. Another issue which we need to deal with is the issue of being accountable to our churches for our time. I would advise all youth Pastors to explain Pete Ward's stuff to your senior pastors and church leaderships under who you serve. Every church should support outreach, and if they understand what you are doing, they may give you more time and resources to do "Outside-In" ministry. I know that as a Senior Pastor I would certainly support youth workers and others starting an Outside-In ministry provided they were in some form accountable to the church. I would encourage all youth workers and Youth Pastors to take initiative and join pagan kids where they are, and not just baby sit Christian kids at the church on Friday night to keep them out of clubs. Ian Ollis.

Eugeny wrote: "It can not be Godly for us even to perceive that these un-churched youngster are going to contaminate the church. The women at the well was treated as an outcast in her village, after her encounter with Jesus she became a disciple telling people about this great Jesus. Those unevangelised souls out there needs a chance...who will give it to them if we want to treat them differently? The issue is Culture, meet people where they are at Just like Jesus met you and me where we were at in 'SIN' yet he entered our lives. 'FOR ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALLEN SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD'" I disagree!!!!! I understand (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that what you're saying here is that it's okay for our churched youth to be mixed together with our Outside-in ministry (which consists of majority unchurched kids). I personally believe that this would not allow for a full and free expression of Christian faith within the "Outside" culture, and that it might not be beneficial for our church kids. An example : A few unchurched kids join our youth group for a go-karting evening, persuade and encourage one of our very new converts do drink beer, resulting in the poor girl getting drunk and our Christian kids wondering what's going on and even trying to experiment with them!!!! Doug Fell.

I'm a youth worker/leader/pastor/whatever in a local church. I run a youth group that follows the traditional Inside-out method/discipline. I read Pete's book and hear him speak and decide that he might have a point regarding all this Outside-in ministry. So now how do I implement it???? Hanging around with kids on their turf on their time takes a lot of our time!! I now have to look after the kids in the church group and spend time building relationships with the "Outside' kids. I study half days and also need to sleep every now and then!! So how do I manage to balance all this??? Is it possible?? Or do I need to choose one or the other?? I told one lady in our church about this whole story and she tuned me that I should get another part-time youth worker whose sole responsibility is one of the disciplines!!???? Any wisdom???? Doug Fell.

Doug wrote: "I now have to look after the kids in the church group and spend time building relationships with the "Outside' kids...So how do I manage to balance all this??? Or do I need to choose one or the other?? I told one lady in our church about this whole story and she tuned me that I should get another part-time youth worker whose sole responsibility is one of the disciplines!!????" Pete mentioned that Outside-In ministry is kinda like a missionary calling. From what I have read in his books he seems to suggest that it would be best if you set someone aside with the burden and skills to work outside-in. That would allow you to continue to minister inside-out. I think it would be important for the leaders handling each discipline to meet together to pray and strategise together regularly. Some of you may have come away from the seminar feeling that Pete was rather hard on the inside-out approach. Part of that has to do with his own calling and gifting; and part has to do with the context he is working in the England. Kids there are not flocking to churches - so youthworkers have been forced to change their operating philosophy from one primarily orientated around inside-out to one that is inside-out. I believe if he were participating in this discussion (and I will be updating him and asking him to participate when he gets a chance - he has a rather hectic schedule in South Africa) he would say that both disciplines are relevant and have a right to exist. There are huge challenges waiting for those who wish to integrate the two disciplines, may God help us to creatively find ways to handle them. Mark Tittley.

Hi there Doug, Interesting...But remember Jesus does not expect you to do all the work by yourself, how about skilling another two or three of your In house youth members and delegate..The kingdom is build by many as many hands makes light work. God is omnipresent not us. Jesus used the disciple to cover the areas that He could not go to that is why He send them out two by two. Use this method as Jesus gave you the examples. DELEGATE! Eugeny Maraba.

I don't believe that the method used was suitable particularly knowing that the aim was to reach out to the unevangelised youngsters. Personally I feel that we should not allow new converts who are still learning about the ministry to encounter such situations . I believe with the "Out Side In " ministry one should only use spiritually strong people of the group ( people who believes that this is their calling) to go out to these youngsters . One should be very well equipped when reaching out. My comment about the new convert - " do we pass the buck by pointing fingers and are you saying this new convert had the beer poured down her throat I don't think so! God has given each one of us a free will the word says " For I set before you life and death a blessing and a cures...choose life " I believe she had a choice and made the wrong one at that point and time" As youth leaders we should use wisdom before we go out into the fields and yes we will make mistakes but we use those very mistakes as examples in life. Eugeny Maraba.

I agree totally with Bernadette in her mail (enclosed below) about going to where the unsaved kids are. In fact, that was my original intention in my first mail (the relevant bits mentioned in Bernadette's mail). I asked those questions (such as "Surely God only works through churches where people come to hear him?") to make a point about church nowadays - the paradigm that spreading the Gospel is the pastor's job - what else do we pay him for anyway? Jesus had something else to say - "Go, and make disciples," - the Great Commission. Someone has pointed out that in the original Greek, "Go" is in the present tense. So an expanded version of the Great Commission is, "While you are going, make disciples." In other words, while you are going about your everyday lives, make disciples. Tie in your everyday activities to Jesus' command. In other words, preaching the Good News is the responsibility of all Christians, not just the pastor and other religious freaks. Does our current church look like that? Are we Christians that make disciples that make disciples? I think that often we fall short of that. Ron Hutchcraft, in his book Battle for a Generation, talks about Discipling. One of his points that a discipler should live is "take them where you go." You are mentoring a younger Christian, and should be modelling Jesus, so that the younger Christian has an idea of what it is to be Christ-like. No small challenge to a Discipler! Part of "taking them where you go" and modelling Jesus, is obeying Christ. This entails evangelism - Christ came to "seek and save the lost." Then we should obey Christ by seeking out lost young people, and presenting the Gospel to them. But young people will only care about how much you know, until they know how much you care. So presenting the Gospel involves caring for these young people - building relationships and being there for them. This is not usually in a church context (yes, we can seek the lost at church, but most of the lost are elsewhere, such as the Waterfront). This, then, is Pete's "Outside-In" model. This list has discussed the theory of "Outside-In" thoroughly - now what we need is some practical implementation within our South African context. This is what Doug asked in his mail - "What does an Outside-in "church" or group look like?? I think the general feel at the conference was that the two disciplines need to be kept separate to stop church kids getting "contaminated" and preserve the culture of the outside group. I have no problem with that, but I struggle to visualise what the outside-in group would look like, not in theory but in ongoing practice!! Do we seek to create a "church" outside of our local church??" So how do we practically implement this?? One last thought - when Mark took Pete and I to the Randburg Waterfront the day before the seminar, we walked past the Morgan's Cat pool hall. I asked Pete - "Would this be the type of place that you'd want to have church in?" - and he said "Yes!" Roger Saner.

It seems that there has been a lot of talking since the conference. What follows is my small contribution. Firstly I don't know if what Pete meant by "outside in" has been understood by all. Outside in is exactly what it says. You start from the outside. That means, to me anyway, that you start where the young people are. Therefore if you live in a "mall" culture, where the young people hang out in a mall, then thats where you start. If you try to get the mall kids to come & hang out in a church hall, even for one night, then you are working INSIDE OUT. Basically you want them to know where you come from so as to place yourself in a "comfortable" zone. May I say a position of "authority"? Now I am not saying that we should be afraid of where we come from, or that we need to hide it, I am just questioning why it is necessary to start there. When Pete says Outside in, he means precisely that. That means we go to where the kids hang out and just begin a friendship with no hidden agendas. We have to be genuine friends with the kids. That means time. That means a complete acceptance of them as creations of God. That means that even if they don't accept Christ ever, they can still count on us as friends. Kids will first of all want to know why you are wanting to be their friend. If you just want to be friends with them so that you can at some stage lead them to Christ, (not a bad goal), they will think that you are just looking for them to be a "scalp" on your belt. I don't want friends who have an ulterior motive. Even one as "high and noble" as saving my soul. Does that mean that as I am being a genuine friend that I don't share my faith, not at all! But it really boils down to our motive. Kids will see through your motive sooner than you can say dot com. They are skeptical about all the stuff that media etc tries to tell them to be, or to buy in order to be. At the beginning you are just another salesman. The onus is on you to prove otherwise. This obviously doesn't happen quickly. I think that it can take as long as 3 years. And this all happens where the kids are, without the visible support of the church, without the comforting presence of a building right out there where there are hurting, abused kids who not in a million years will come to church. In that time you can when the moment is right, when the kids ask you why you take time to get to know them, in those significant moments where the kids will talk deep stuff with significant people in their lives, you can share Jesus with them outside a movie house and even challenge them to think about it, and to talk more. The problem comes in that to introduce this to the church, without WARNING AND EDUCATION OF AT LEAST THE DECISION MAKERS is probably close to committing professional suicide. At the moment most church members, leaders, Senior pastors, parents want us to be BABYSITTERS looking after their kids. They abdicate their responsibility as parents to us as youth workers. So what do we do? We have got to educate everyone, from the top right to the bottom, and then educate them again, and then educate them again so that when we start to minister to this generation at least we can say, this is that as we start to feel the presence of kids who are not conversant with the "CHRISTIANESE " in speech and behavior start to come to some of our meetings. Even after all that education, there will be those individuals and churches who will not accept that as a real ministry and then you need to decide to live and work within those boundaries or not. If we are going to be really serious about reaching the MAJORITY of the young people, who DO NOT attend our churches, Friday or Sunday then we have to be open to a complete change of mindset. We cannot continue doing something if the results show us to be having little or no effect. That would be sheer lunacy, but look at churches and see it happening all the time. I have a lot more to say but will leave it there for the moment and invite your comments. Mike Geldenhuis.

I think the misconception originates from the fact that Pete is ministering in a postmodern world. We are not there yet. (WE ARE CERTAINLY RAPIDLY HEADING THAT WAY). Pete's comment that young people no longer attend church is the premise he has to work from, thus outside in ministry. We still have the luxury of young people attending church and youth group. So we should not shoot ourselves in the foot and ignore the young people we have, rather we need to devise a bridge between Pete's model and where we are at. Someone was saying that maybe we should equip others to tackle the teens outside the church. That's a good idea. It is not contradicting what Pete said that when we do this we need to be called of God. Rather we are contextualising what Pete has said and simply using his philosphy of ministry to impact ours. Llewellyn Clayton.

My name is Lauren, and I've been involved in the youth realm for about 5 years. let me give you some more background so you can see where I'm coming from. 7 years ago, I was classed into the "unchurched Youth"category - and was placed into a youth group by God (there's no other way to explain it) I went faithfully to youth - and other church activities as a result of accepting Christ. But it took about 3 years before my walk with God was on a firm and constant foundation. I then became a part of the Youth committee. We tried a method of using the "Youth group" as disciplers - who would bring their friends - and we ended up with a half "churched", half "unchurched" group. The result = disastorous - the church became like the unchurched! - we assumed the Youth group were automatically equipped to disciple. So now I can see where our problems lay. I think our first mistake is one that many people make - Youth was just a social Friday night gathering - Yes we had teaching,but we obviously failed at making DISCIPLES!! I think youth is supposed to be a place where we are to train young people to immitate Christ. That would lay responsibility of teacher/discipler onto us as leaders. Second thing we must not forget is that we get the added responsibility of parent i.e. "Train your childred up in the way they should go" With all this in mind I came to this conclusion. As Youth workers/leaders/pastors etc we are to: (1) Immitate Christ; (2) Make disciples and equip them to do the same as Christ has done. So wouldn't the "inside out" group naturally become the "Outside in" disciplers if we have trained them to become disciplers? But we have to remember, Christ trained his disciples for 3 years - mostly what the disciples did was to observe with little interaction with the crowds other that what Jesus told them to do. If we structured outside in around what Jesus did - we disciple our youth and reach out to the world. Lauren Pratt.

Our departure point must always be the bible otherwise we are merely pushing our own view and opinions on issues. When it comes to God's kingdom in it broadest sense, the only revelation of it we have is in the bible. Matthew 5:13, says that we are the salt of the earth. This means that people must see the Christ in us. This is the only influential presence that a Christian has. We are the aroma of Christ. 2 Cor. 15, We are living letters, known and read by everyone. 2Corin.3:2. 1 Corinthians 9:19-23. what Pauls is saying is clear, we must build bridges to meet people where they are. You start we they are but you do not stay where they are, step by step you lead hem slowly to where the bible says they must be, which is where God wants them to be. Matt. 11:19,"The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners." Jesus said of his mission, Luke 19:10, "For the son of Man cam to seek and to save what was lost." Our God given calling is to lead them from where they are to where God's wants them. This means that they must find a relationship with Jesus, become disciples, by walking in obedience to the word, they must be nurtured and fed to they can feed themselves spiritually. They must also be baptised. John 3:5, "...Born of the water and the spirit..." They become part of the "church" the body of Christ. The following things can happen: (1) This young people undergoe such a transformation that they are willing to become a fully integrated part of the church. This sometimes does happen. (2) You may provide a special youth service, mid week meeting, small group where they can still identify with their own generation, yet they still need to weekly experience the unity of fellowshipping with all believers. (3) The church may be so "old fashioned" that you may want to plant another church. But if you do this it must not be an exclusively youth church, because this flies in the face of unity in Christ. Ellsworth Baxen.

I read a book last year by Pete Ward, called Youth and Worship. Excellent reading. Really challenged us to be more creative. Do you guys have more ideas? More importantly do you know what type of music he used for the bible meditation part? You know that dreamy mystical music. Could you help with a name of a CD or artist, please? I have no idea. Elske Barnard.

I will ry to get the name of that CD from Pete when I see him tomorrow. It is music used in the rave culture - you could ask for trance or chill-out music at a place like Musica and get something similar. I purchased one of the CDs that Pete had. It wa sthe one he used during the afternoon creativ worship session - it has some tracks that would be suitable as well - It is a Christian techno bank from the UK called Synergy. The album is called "Return to Ritual". I bought it at Look and Listen in Fourways. I also picked up a secular 2-CD set that is more Trance orientated and would work well for a guided meditation. Each CD is a selection of remixes by a different DJ. The second CD is by Robert Miles. Mark Tittley.

To be updated....